Now, I’m a Mormon. I’ve always been upfront about that. Introducing the Book of Mormon–and talking specifically about one of its stories–was not something I did just because. I have no problem talking about and sharing my faith (did it full-time for two years as a missionary), but that’s not what SuperFogeys is for. So why go there? For the same reason I go anywhere: because it’s right for the characters and the story. Tangerine has changed quite a bit since he was first introduced (even in appearance!–click on the “Tangerine” tag to see what I mean) and it’s always been leading to this moment. He’s made a crucial decision about who he is and it’s the same journey many, many others have taken. (Stories of men in prison finding God and turning away from their previous evil are common–though probably not as common as we as a society wish they were!) You’ll learn more about the specifics of Tangerine’s decision–and about the story that inspired it–on Monday.
SuperFogeys Babies ends this Friday! Don’t miss it!
Jerry’s gone from his happy-go-lucky personality in front of CS to being a real person bit by bit. I wonder if CS has picked up on anything strange about his sidekick.
Actually, I think if you go back and reference Jerry’s interactions with Tangerine in Chapter 5, you’ll see that his attitude here isn’t entirely inconsistent with what we’ve already seen. And back then, NOBODY was guessing Jerry had a darker side. He’s multi-faceted. Happy-go-lucky, but with a self-righteous streak, clearly.
I remember it quite clearly. Jerry didn’t like Tangerine or Sam. He doesn’t forgive easily — although seemed to accept the Pink Shade as reformed. It’s odd because Sam clearly regretted everything he did. He’s always been a messed up individual.
No, I think he probably just used the Pink Shade as an excuse to judge Tangerine. Had Pink Shade lived, he’d probably find a way to judge her as well. I used to be a zealous, self-righteous judgmental “New Testament Pharisee” type in my younger days, so I’d probably be able to crack open this trait of Jerry’s and explore it a little.
I think Jerry MIGHT want to hold his tongue when he’s throwing out things like this to Tangerine lest he forget Tangerine knows his dirty little secret
Excellent point, drew. Although one has to wonder… what does Tangerine really know?
Well brock if this were any other comic or marvel/dc/image comic i’d take you at your word. BUT this is you writing it lol so i know somewhere there is a HUGE twist that’ll be coming up before we know it probably before anything cap’s alien son will come crashing in throwing another wrench in the works!
Wow, Tangerine a Mormon….. Well I can tell who he’s voting for next month. š
actually there are many more Mormons than you would suspect who do not plan on voting for the Republican candidate. Their reasons are as varied as other people’s. Never lump people into similar groups just cos they have similar labels. And convicts can’t vote š
Too true, Heather. Also, reading The Book of Mormon doesn’t automatically make you a Mormon. We stopped printing with that “special ink” a long, long time ago.
I agree, but don’t understand the “special ink” comment š
Yes, because we all know Jerry hasn’t screwed things up recently.
Jerry’s amazing! And perfect!
wow, jerry. let me tell you a story about pots and kettles..
Jerry – what if you are a giant screw up and you haven’t found God? You can almost feel the fiery crater opening up right under his feet.
*sigh*
Nonviolence of this kind doesn’t work if it’s a one-way street. It’s fine if you let yourself get killed for a principle. It’s another thing if you just stand by and let the whole world get killed by your own inaction. The strategy of Ghandi and King only works if your opponent has some kind of social conscience that can be moved, or who cares about having the moral high ground. Then it does work, and is the best way to create lasting social change.
This is a frigging alien invasion of an armada of inhuman supervillains who have no conscience. You may as well try nonviolence on a colony of hornets.
Poor, poor Tangerine. Like a lot of religious people, so concerned about his own private little soul and his own crimes and regrets that he’ll let the rest of the whole world go to H311 – literally – rather than risk his “salvation.” Selfish. Short-sighted and wrong-headed. .
Jesus Christ asked what manner of people we ought to be, his answer, āeven as I amā (3 Nephi 27:27)
If we are to believe the Bible, then Jesus was willing to go to H311 himself for the salvation of the world. They’re not asking Tangerine to kill and maim – but to be a hero
Just my $.02.
But Christ didn’t “go to Hell”, he visited Hell long enough to throw open the Gates of Hell and, being sinless, went to Heaven.
In the story of the people of Anti-Nephi-Lehi that Tangerine was referring to, the people were blood thirsty murderers who reveled in shedding blood. When they come to a realization of their guilt, and after repenting and receiving forgiveness, they are afraid to take up arms again for fear they would return to their bloodlust and be damned again. They were willing to kneel down in front of their enemy and be slaughtered rather than defend themselves and be damned.
Christ would have us be even as he is, sinlessāor in our case, striving with all our might to commit as few sins as we can. After Tangerineās conviction of his guilt, if he returned to his ways he would have a one way ticket to the place Christ only visited.
In exchange for what? If Christ’s sacrifice was just a quick whistlestop, a “There and Back Again,” then his crucifixion becomes meaningless. He was totally human and also totally divine. If he could not really feel real pain and death, could not understand despair and loss and damnation, then the whole story is nothing.
Christs sacrifice was not going to hell, it was suffering for all the sins of humanity, taking all that upon him even though he was sinless and deserved none of it. Being sinless, he opens the way to salvation and forgiveness for those who aren’t. You don’t need to go to hell and stay there to take upon yourself the weight, pain, and despair of sins.
Then where is the suffering? Where is the genuine sacrifice? I am often told by evangelicals about Christ’s suffering being the equivalent of an innocent man giving his life to save that of his guilty brother. But for a human being death is forever. Suffering and damnation, we are told, is forever without end. The sacrifice of an innocent mortal man – the mortal Jesus, if you will, would be that he has to stay there to buy everyone else’s salvation. When you see him risen, he’s no longer mortal. His frail humanity is gone and he’s now a transfigured, fully divine being. Without that part of him remaining there in place of those who accept him as savior, it’s not a big deal. Just saying that’s the only way I can make the proxy sacrifice of the story work, because otherwise it’s not a real sacrifice worthy of the soul of the whole human race. That’s the way an infinite love would really express itself, in my opinion.
Yes, I think about these things. Sometimes, not often, I say them aloud or actually write them.
JE, I think that’s a fairly cogent analysis of the potential issues with total nonviolence. However…
WGC, I think you’re 100% right. You’ve correctly identified the story Tangerine is talking about and I think while the decision they made could be seen as selfish, when you value salvation over your life, it’s really not. Sometimes, what is right for the individual is not what is right for all.
It wouldn’t be selfish to say your salvation was worth more than your own life. But what about everyone else’s life? What about the soul of humanity itself? It’s all very well to say you’re going to stubbornly sit there and never risk your soul by lifting a finger in your own defense. But how precious is one soul compared to every other? What if you could save another soul by condemning your own to Hell? There’s a story by Mark Twain you might want to read in regards to this: “Was It Heaven? Or Hell?” And also the movie “Purgatory.” Both explore the notion of Divine wisdom, justice and the needs of common, simple humanity.
Tangerine is about to become a huge fan of Battlestar Galactica….
Because it’s awesome or… ?
BSG creator Glenn A. Larson is LDS and placed ALOT of mormon stuff in the show. Like the lost tribes, Kobol/Kolob, ect…
Here’s a list of some of the examples:
http://home.comcast.net/~billotto/Mormon_N_BSG.html
As soon as I saw Tangerine reading the Book of Mormon I thought it was going to this.
Very astute.
[…] First Prev In Chapter […]
This comment was originally attached to smaller comment above. I was talking about exploring Jerry – and Tangerine’s – character developments. Probing them a bit. I’d like to do this for other characters as well. This is obviously of a spiritual nature given the above dialogue in the strip. I’ve met a few Christians-turned-atheist and have tried to curiously probe them to understand their feelings. Sadly, the reaction I get is hostile, so instead I’ve been reading books where others have probed more successfully. Usually the books are written by atheists-turned-Christian and Christians-turned-atheist, respectfully, and include dialogue between the two. Although atheism isn’t the topic at hand, this is simply a detail of how I got into studying this lately. One of my goals is to understand how people feel and their thought processes that have lead them from one belief to another. Here goes:
If I did [explore], I think we’d find that Jerry is VERY zealous about doing the right thing but is never able to come to grips with his own shortcomings. Or, rather, he doesn’t want to. I have to admit, however, that Jerry and I might possibly differ in that during this time [when I was younger and judgmental (like Gospel portrayals of the Pharisees)] I was plagued secretly by inner guilt concerning my own actions. I beat myself up about it, name called myself, exacted harsh punishments on myself, and hated myself when I failed to measure up to my idealistic standards and personal morals. It’s as if I couldn’t stop these moral failures, as if enslaved to them (if this were a religious conversation – technically it is – I could expound on that with Scripture references, like so: John 8:30-36, Romans 7:14-25). They were the same as the problems of the people I was judging, yet I – perhaps like the praying Pharisee in an allegory that Jesus taught (Luke 18:9-14) – was always able to excuse myself by saying that I “wasn’t as bad as them” or that somehow my sins were not as severe. Even when that is true – for example, hating someone is not as “bad” as mass genocide – the truth is that this kind of attitude is wrong. It’s blame shifting. It refuses to accept blame and therefore shifts the focus to the fault of another. When you think about it, it’s actually childish. When a person matures from this – if he or she matures from this – they come to a point where they realize that there’s something wrong about having animosity towards others that are just as flawed as one’s self. You realize you yourself are just as much deserving judgment as the one you are judging, and because of that you realize you are in no place to judge others. For me, the point I came to was realizing that Jesus taught love – not legalism (nor the condemnation when failing to measure up to those laws that comes with it) – and that, because of Jesus’ work on the cross and my decision about Him, thus receiving love and forgiveness from God, I could forgive and love myself, which I believe supernaturally enables me to forgive and love others. As long as I am hating and condemning myself, I cannot hope to be able to stop hating and condemning others. The only problem is that a person cannot come to forgive themselves until they set aside their pride and admit that they too are in need of forgiveness. Being flawed and accepting that truth, I feel I am able to better understand the pain and problems of others and their need for forgiveness and inward healing. Of course, being Christian, I feel that a large part of that healing process involves a spiritual side that requires Jesus. Given the direction of the conversation between Jerry and Tangerine – and Cap’s Jewish roots – this is appropriate to the conversation, but I will not delve deeper into that at this time. And, perhaps, the above paragraph also relates to Tangerine’s experiences. It is possible that his bringing judgment to those he felt deserved it has masked an inward need for forgiveness himself. Now that he has come to grips with who he is and his need for Jesus, it may be that he feels better able to love others. His refusal to participate in the “war” to save the planet, although complicated, may be in part due to his realization that he – as a person deserving judgment – is in no place to do that judging himself, which is his super power (the death of the villain). He feels that there is coming a day when the true Judge will set the record straight and right all wrongs and tragedies of this world. Ah, but perhaps that topic – being off topic – is too long to discuss here and now. But this may be possibly how Tangerine feels, it may be a part of his character development.
For a neat comparison of two other characters that share Tangerine and Jerry’s perspectives, a person can read Luke 18:9-14.
I have a copy of the Book of Mormon at work that I plan on reading soon. That’s where I do all my reading, ha ha.